Digital SHEro Rosa: Balancing Motherhood and Management

Moderation

Hi, everyone. We are today at Copenhagen at the Inspari office, it’s a valantic company and we are here with Rosa today. Who will tell us something about her career. And we are very excited to get to know you. Rosa, maybe you want to introduce yourself to our listeners.

Rosa

Yes. And thank you. And welcome to Copenhagen and our Inspari office.

Moderation

Thank you.

Rosa

Really, been looking forward to this. So, as you also didn't know, usually, I'm hosting a podcast. So, it's also a new situation for me to be here and being interviewed. So that's really exciting. My name is Rosa. I'm 39 years old, married, and I have three kids. And, in my job in Inspari I work as a business unit director. So that means that I'm responsible for our all of our consultants which are located in two teams here in our office in Copenhagen. I have been in Inspari for a very long time. I joined the company, 12 years ago, and, I've had, several different roles here, being both, a consultant, being business consultant, project manager also implemented solutions. Had a team of a lot of, consultants, building that up, as a team leader and a team director. And then I've also joined our commercial department, being out and selling, a lot of, fancy solutions. And then in May this year, I, I joined the role as a business unit director.

Moderation

Yeah. Well, this is a long career, a long way. And how did you start your way into IT?

Rosa

It actually started with, when I chose my studies at the Copenhagen Business School. I studied, business administration and computer science and I actually, chose my field of study based on my grade levels from high school and also, if I could make good money out of it. I know that it sounds cynical, but I’m actually quite motivated by looking into having a good career. Before I joined, the business school, after I, was done with the high school, I worked in a kindergarten for two years. I've always been very, very attracted to working with kids. I'm also one out of five children, on my father's side. So I've always, always had small children around me. But then I realized that, I was an assistant to a Pedagogic at that time. And I just realized that I could only earn a little bit more money, but actually going into the studies as a as a pedagogue. And then I turned my head around and look at a business school. So, that was, that was the way I started to study computer science and programing and stuff like that. So, it goes it goes way back.

Moderation

That's quite a change. And what were these school topics where you had the best grades that led you to computer science?

Rosa

Actually, it was the opposite, way around, because it was fairly easy to go into computer science at that time. So, actually I didn't manage to have those good grades in high school. It was more like an average every year. So, I had to, to look at the list and say, okay, what can I actually manage to get into, and that was an open spot. It's a quite complex way that they find out how many can actually, go into a certain study. And at that point in time, it was very difficult to attract, people and especially also women, girls, into the field of computer science and programming and such. So, that was the way it started for me.

Moderation

But did you learn anything about it at school, did you have some IT related topics?

Rosa

I had one programming course, which was a one that we could select in high school. I remember that I programmed a calculator and a small online bank. It's, something like that. And I found it very, very interesting already, at that time.

Moderation

And do you think that your pedagogic skills are helpful for your job, today as well?

Rosa

I actually think being a pedagogue means that you also need to have a lot of human skills, a lot of warmth and being good at caring about other people. I really think that that is something that I bring to work every day, that I would, love to be seen as a person that is also smiling and present to my colleagues and caring about them also as more than just, that they walk into the office, but also their private lives and stuff like that. And then I just love being around my own kids also. So it's really also a part of part of me and that I have a small kindergarten at home.

Moderation

So, you have both at home and the IT at work. Yeah. Very cool. And what was your first touchpoint to consulting? When did you know that you want to be a consultant?

Rosa

Yeah, that's actually a quite interesting question because my first relevant job once I was studying was actually as a junior consultant at PA consulting. So, one thing about me is that I've never tried to have a real job outside of consulting. I'm really, born and raised, always, helping clients, outside the company that has always been. And sometimes I'm also curious about what it is like to be, hired as an internal in a company, but I've never tried it myself, so I live that, throughout some of my colleagues, that come from the industry, and such. So, it started, when I was on my Bachelor. I had a consultant task at PA consulting, and then I just, transferred to another consulting firm and a little less than a year after I graduated, I joined Inspari. So that has that has always been part of me. That we’re billing customers for our work. That is also why I really love the part about podcasting, because I get interactions with clients and also just with companies where I don't have to think about that I'm sending them a bill afterwards. It's just a really a free space for having fun and being curious. And not having to think about that it's purely business, but it's just something that is passion driven.

Moderation

So, maybe we can talk about this later, a little bit more about your own podcast. I think it's very interesting. So, you seem to like consulting very much. What do you like the most in consulting? So, you never tried, the in-house role. But what do you think are the benefits in consulting?

Rosa

I think that to me the benefits is something that really also resemble with how I am as a person and how I would like to be motivated every day. And that is that there are a lot of different clients that you, that you are engaged in. Not every day is the same. I really like that we don't, get stuck in a situation or a way of working and then it just goes on for years. I really like that there are progress and there are things that are different. I talk to different people almost every day I engage, I can get curious on different companies, different industries and stuff like that. And that is really what keeps me motivated and something that I think is very unique about being a consultant, that you get to explore a lot of different industries and a lot of different companies and sizes and get to know, different cultures and it's no secret that you also get to know companies where you don't want to work. So, if you should work outside of a consulting firm, then there are companies where I would say that I may not fit as a person. And then I also have a huge drive, and I like to push things forward. I have a certain, progress. And to me, I think that when we are delivering on projects and towards clients then there are a certain level of energy and progress that we need to deliver and stuff. And I like that. I like that energy in doing my work. So, so that is to me some unique points.

Moderation

Did you often have to jump into cold water in your career?

Rosa

That's a good question. If I were being outside of my comfort zone. Is that what you mean. I think that I remember one specific situation I was just hired and I've been here for I think 12 days. And then I was sent on a task. And when you just start a new job and especially when you're consulting, you're very good, very happy about having your first task, because that means that you can actually earn some money and I had to go to a customer in Sweden and I had to train them in a certain programming language, which is quite complex. Something that you can do, when you browse data in a spreadsheet, then you can do some formula on top to do some very nice reporting at least at that time. And that was something that I had no clue about. So, I didn't know how to do these programming coding. And I have never tried it before, I just started- so I was just like okay let's do it. So, one of the partners at that time at Inspari he was with me, and we spent a lot of evenings preparing, and I went to the client and the client was very nice. We had a very, very good day together. I had to be there a whole day to learn this language with the client and then what happened is that their office package was installed in Sweden. And these programming codes, they are regional, based on the local setting on the computer. So that was really my relief because, then I could not match it completely with how I've learned it. And then that was the way that we had a very good day because “okay, but this is in Sweden and Sweden and Danish is not the same. So, that was really a way for me to handle this situation because, of course I was prepared but half of it was “okay, let's just try it. How bad can it go?” And then the whole setting was in Sweden. So that really helped, a lot.

Moderation

They gave you the perfect excuse for not knowing everything.

Rosa

Exactly. And I also think that this was a situation that was a little bit scary, but also not something that happens every day. It's not like the next employee that goes into Inspari, I will send off to this kind of test.

Moderation

So, no worries!

Rosa

Don't worry. But I do think that I tend to be put in situations outside of my comfort because I really like being challenged. And I'm also as a person good at handling complex situations. So, in the past, when I was working as a project manager if we have projects that were not going that smooth, it was like “okay, put Rosa in the place and then things will be fixed”. So, I think that I've been placed in that situation quite a few times. Because I also like that it's not easy.

Moderation

I think as a consultant it's very good to be flexible and to manage such situations. So you are good in improvising?

Rosa

Maybe. Yeah, exactly.

Moderation

That's a good skill in consulting. Do you maybe have some advice for other women for this kind of situations?

Rosa

If I have advice for this kind of situation, I think that what is important is that you listen to yourself and that you don't cross any lines in what you feel comfortable about. There are certain levels of feeling scary or uncomfortable. And I think that this kind of situation should not put too much pressure on you. So, it's very important that you listen to yourself and that you know and understand, where are your limits. And then you can also reach out and ask for help. That is also something I do when, when I foresee a situation that can put me really on the edge of something that I do not feel comfortable about. Then I reach out to some of my good colleagues and talk through the situation: What is the worst that can happen? How can we prepare? How can you limit the scariness? Think that a big part of it is that you understand when it is too much for you as a person. That really requires that you are good at understanding. And I'm pointing at my chest. Something that you can't see, but we need that, you are good at listening to your own inner voice.

Moderation

So, it's not a weakness to ask for help. I think it's very important to know this.

Rosa

Yeah. And I also think that my mom, she always, told me that you can try, you can do your best and then you cannot do more. So, if you make an effort and you really do your best, then that is what you can do. You cannot be another person. You cannot be ten plus years experienced, if you are not. But you can do your best. You can make an effort and then you cannot do more. And that is something that really calms me down. Knowing that that is what you could do. That that is what you are capable of. And then that is also good.

Moderation

And nobody knows everything and nobody's perfect. So, it's definitely a great advice. Rosa you already talked about that there are less women in the IT industry than men. Maybe you can talk a little bit about your experiences as a woman in the IT industry.

Rosa

So, what I mentioned earlier was that I already felt the eagerness of attracting, young women to these specific studies at Copenhagen Business School. And when I was studying, I also joined an initiative that we went out as women studying IT and we visited schools, like college level. And had talks with young girls about how it was like working in IT. And I think that IT is one area where it's very dominated by a lot of guys that find it very interesting. Maybe they've been playing games all of their life and they have like a very, natural way into it. But I think that if we also add consulting on top, I think that we then also really have a situation, where there are also fewer ladies, I believe. Also, from my perspective, being a mom, I get a lot of questions about how I balance being a consultant where we do not necessarily only work 30 or 40 hours a week, sometimes it may require a lot more. And we also have clients that expect our availability in certain time slots during the day and evening and maybe working at international clients means that you also need to work in the night and stuff. So, IT is something that requires maybe a little bit more guts to go into as a woman and then consulting on top, really makes it a hard one. And I've experienced, to me it's been very natural, because I've been in the field for so long, and there were less than 10% women in the business school in the five years when I was there. And it's also been up and down here in Inspari and so at one point we actually had, quite a few women. And at the moment, I don't know the exact number, but I can find out. But I do not think that we are very much above 10%. I think that to me, and I think that we also talked about it before we went into this podcast, I haven't really explored this area so much, because I think that to me, what is important is that you are motivated in your work and that you like, what you work with. So, to me it's not important if you are a man or a woman, but we need to be passionate about what we do and we need to also be knowledgeable about what we do. And of course, I completely acknowledge that there is room for improvement. And that it's, important that we focus on it and that we create an environment where women can also grow and be motivated and have a work life balance, despite that it's an IT consultant firm. think that is important for every workplace to be able to do that. But to me and also being a manager it's important when I meet candidates that they are passionate about what they do, that they have the right attitude. And I can see that it fits into our culture and that they are also skilled in their area of interest. And if that is, a man or a woman, that is not something that is important to me when I select a candidate to a job.

Moderation

I think it's, very cool that you go to schools and motivate and talk to girls about the IT industry and tell them that it's also for women a very good field, a big field and, wide area of different roles. And in consulting, it's not just the programmer. Maybe you have this picture in your mind when you talk about IT and it's also consulting and there are a lot of different, there's a variety.

Rosa

I think that's a really good point because, I think one of the things that we could do is be more open and more transparent about what is it working in IT. Because, yeah, I have a master’s in computer science, but today I do not program. I understand the technical terms. I understand the field and the domain that we work in. But what I primarily do is that I work with communicating. That is one of the key skills that I go to work with every day being able to communicate and navigate complex situations. So, I think there is so much that we learn in school that just gave us a skill set of operating complex situations. And that is what we do when we are consultants: go out to clients and we understand their situation and we help them navigate through it. And then we provide some technology, and we provide other sets of skills and capabilities. But to me I have a background in it, I understand it, I think I have my fundamentals in place, but my role has never been programming, never been looking at black screens with green text and stuff like that. That is not the way that I have explored in IT. So, I also think that what you touched upon earlier is that we also need to fold out what is IT? Because it's so much more than just, opening up a computer and programming, coding something very complex.

Moderation

And it's really hard to explain that to someone who's going to school and looking for something, where they can work in, to explain consulting and IT and how many different areas there are. I think it's very, important to tell everyone about it and for the children to see how many opportunities there are in IT and consultancy. How is the feedback you're getting from the students when you go to the schools?

Rosa

It's a long time ago. So, what I remember is that there were primarily just listening and very, very interested in also what can you then be and what can you work with? When one thing is to select that field of study. But what happens when we are on the outside and when we graduate? So that is primarily, some of the things that students and people in school find interesting to understand. What can I do? What can I work with?

Moderation

Because it's such an important decision for your life. And what do you do for your day-to-day work? And I think it's very important to have this opportunity in your mind, and that you can see what is possible and maybe you can motivate some girls or boys to go into the IT industry.

Rosa

Because I can also see just looking at our office and the culture we have that everyone is bringing is something unique to the culture and having both, women and men, coming from different backgrounds and also different studies and that bring in diversity in a team. And that is very, very, positive. If it's only men and women together I'm not sure. I think that it's the sum of every background and every attitude and energy that you bring in.

Moderation

Yeah, definitely. I didn’t want to interrupt you.

Rosa

No, it sums up to the perfect match in the culture. Because I also think that it's not necessarily a very nice place to be where you only have women together. And I've never felt that comfortable just being around women because I'm not that good at things that are happening in the room that we don't talk about. And I think that I'm pretty much an open book. What you see is what you get. And I'm not good at, if people are hiding something that they're not telling me, that's really something that I feel, people, if they're present to me and if they actually say what they want or at least in some way express their needs. So, these kinds of things where relationships, where something is not set, I'm not that good at it. And maybe because I've never practiced because I haven't been in a, in a huge density of women. But yeah, I also think that can also create some challenges.

Moderation

Yeah. Of course. I think, diverse teams, more productive and you have more different perspectives. And so, it's helpful to see, other solutions maybe or something like this. It's, a great benefit to have a diverse team and more diversity in the IT industry in general. You are also in a management position, maybe you also have some advice for people or women who are already in the industry, how to maybe get into a management position. What's important, from your perspective, if you want to achieve that.

Rosa

That's a good question. I think that I would like to revert back to one of the points I had earlier about that it's important to listen to yourself and really have yourself with you. So, what is important is that you are in a position in life where you are able to grasp more responsibility, and that you can also set aside maybe time and other interests for being present because it requires more to be in a manager position. You need to be more reachable and present and take up responsibility. So, I think that it's important that you ask yourself, is this the right timing in your life? Is it something that will be motivating for you, or is it something that will drain your energy? That is definitely one of the things. And then I think that for me it has been a very good way to learn the way into management is by being a project manager. So, I think that there are a lot of different ways where you can practice, the responsibility and the tasks and the skills that you need to have when you are managing other people. And I think that if you are able to grab a project manager position at a customer, then naturally you will also feel responsible for the team members, and you will get to learn their personal preferences, and you will get to learn about what are they when they're not at work and how do you help them be more a success in their role at the team and stuff like that.

So that has been one of the ways for me to practice. And then the next steps have been very natural. To me, that it was time to take on a more responsibility. And I really love it. I really love that I can have an influence. And I really love that it’s also important that I go to work every day because I'm important to other people. That is really something that drives me and that I can be part of taking decisions, be part of supporting changes in the company and be part of also making sure that everyone is okay when things are happening and when changes occur. It's just one year ago that Inspari joined valantic. That is a huge change. Maybe it wasn't one year ago, but now a year after, we are looking at changes and new ways of working, new colleagues to work with and for me to be there and support the team and support our decisions. That is really something that drives me that I choose to go to work and be present is important for other people.

Moderation

Sounds very good. It sounds really great how you describe your leadership style, because you're very supportive and you're there for your team. And, I think that's, a great way to lead.

Rosa

That has always been like one of my values that if my team members have a problem or a challenge or something they can always, and now I don't want to say anything not that nice in the recording, but they can always dump shit at my desk, if you could say that. Because I will fix it. I will make their lives easier if they have a discussion with a client or conflict or a scope crisis or if they've just happened to be in a situation where they can see that they've completely allocated or overallocated their time, or if they have a personal issue and something like that, they can always leave these kind of problems with me and I will fix it. Of course, if they want me to. But I would like to be involved, like to be the one that kind of like leads the way for them to just do what they're good at. And that is something that I really am proud of in that. And that maybe also be back to the thing that we talked about before, that I like being in scary situations, because I don't have a problem with it. I like, I don't want to say I like conflicts, but I can be quite motivated if there's something that we need to solve. So, I find it natural to take that position and makes it easier for others to perform.

Moderation

Earlier, we talked about the challenges between family life and consulting life and in your management role, how do you balance these two areas? So, your private life, with your family, with the kids, and with your management role?

Rosa

That's a really good question. And to be honest, it's not easy. And it's not easy for me to balance. I will not say that I have the perfect recipe for this. I know that I really prioritize my kids and my family, very, very high. And I've always done that. And I think that in our company, we have a very big flexibility. And that is also something that really helps, in my everyday life that I can pick up my kids early be home with them, cook dinner and then put them to sleep very early. They are small, they need a lot of sleep. And then sometimes I work in the evening. And that is something that works very well for me. So, the flexibility is for me key to get the bits and pieces together. But it is difficult. It really is. What I can see for myself is that when I'm in a good place at work, I'm also in a good place at home. So, when I'm a balanced mom, I also am a balanced manager. And when I'm a balanced manager, I also get home with a good energy and a positive perspective. And I’m better at solving conflicts with my two sons and one daughter, there are a lot of conflicts having kids that is really crazy. But I really find that when I'm balanced one place, I bring that to. And of course, on the other side, if there are things that are not working at the job, things, decisions that I'm worried about, performance that are not there, something like that, then that energy is also something that can be brought back to the family. And then I also think that from experience I know that you can work as hard as you can, but you will never be done. So sometimes I'm also in the mood where I’m like “I don't want to work in the evening, I don't want to work on the weekends” because what are we aiming for? I will never be done with my to-do list. I can work forever. And I think that has is something that has come through the years, I sound so old, but I think that that is just learning from experience and maybe also the type of task I have. You are never done developing employees. You are never done creating career plans. You're never done hitting the strategy or something like that. Maybe sometimes you are done with the project. But in my role, there are things that you can do all the time. Articles you can read, parts, podcast you can read, listen to, just browsing through your emails and stuff like that. So I think that you do it the best you can and then you cannot do more. And sometimes I just like to watch, stupid TV in the afternoon because that is also, something that fills up my energy. I'll go out and do some training, exercising. That is also important.

Moderation

Are you good in switching off after work when you are at home in your private time, do you have strict borders, or do you have some ways to separate the areas?

Rosa

I think that to me, what but I'm most, not happy about is that I have so few kilometres from my office to my home, so the switching doesn't really happen because it takes five minutes to drive to the kindergarden or school or to my home. And I would lie if I said that I'm good at switching. I have some rules and something that I try to do, which is for example leave the phone out in my pocket when I get home, and then look at it maybe in the evening. But I would really like to be better also because my kids are also sometimes noticing it. And right now I'm in a situation where I have a lot of things on my mind. And it's sometimes difficult to be present, more than just physically, but really be present in conversations also because tasks switching is maybe you don't think about it when you sit here in the office, but when I leave out of the office and sit in my car and then five minutes later I'm in a kindergarten with two – I have two small kids that are, just one and a half year between – and then I have to pick them up, I'm standing there in my work wear trying to get my kids to pack their bags and go out of the kindergarten and then home. And then on the way home, can I get an ice cream? What are we having for dinner? What are we going to do? And then five minutes later, I'm sitting at the dining table, drawing unicorns and stuff. So, the whole the context is just switching so heavily and very fast. And also in the morning, we have very nice mornings at my home, we always eat breakfast together and we all – me and my husband – we have our very good coffee together. And that is like, very important every morning. But then we also get to a point, when I really would like to get the kids out of the house and then finally when I'm here, then there is just completely silence. And I love it. So this switching is very, very, intense.

Moderation

Yeah. It's just like it. Two worlds.

Rosa

Two worlds. Exactly. And maybe when you see me at the office and sitting with me in a meeting at 8:30 in the morning, you can’t see what I have just gone through for the past three hours, because I'm there, I'm present, and we are in a whole other situation or context. But that is intense, I would say.

Moderation

But for me, it sounds like the children help a lot for switching because they have so many questions for you and so many things you have to handle packing their bags and so on. That you’re To automatically with your thoughts at something different and not at work anymore.

Rosa

No that's right. They, they, forced me to be present. And also, when we get back from a long day, they're having, 800 needs at the same time. So that's right. That is a way of coping just to have noisy kids that need your attention.

Moderation

And then there's not about customers, but about ice cream or unicorns.

Rosa

Exactly. But that is also another part of me that, of course, I really love my job. And that is also why I spend time outside of being in the office. But I really also love to be creative. And that's always been something. So, when they force me to draw a drawing, I really like it. That is a safe space for me. We have a whole closet filled with stuff that you can use when you are creative. And that is really, really nice. And my big son is also very interested in being creative. So, hat is, that is definitely also a way for me to relax and just be there and be present. And I also like to cook. So that is also typically “I'm like, I want to cook, I want to cook” because that is also when I'm just almost meditating.

Moderation

We talked about it yesterday that we are really zoning out when we are painting or something like that. Because you're in a total different world. Yeah. Yeah. And your thoughts automatically were off.

Rosa

Exactly. It's good to have these kind of activities that you can go to.

Moderation

Rosa, you already talked about your podcast at the beginning. Maybe you can tell us a little bit more about it. And what are you talking about? I think you have some guests at the podcast. What are those? And what are the topics you talk about?

Rosa

Yes, we have a podcast at Inspari and it's called the Data Club. So, the data club and what we do is that, at the moment, we are really exploring the digital transformation in companies. So, we are very eager to understand the challenges and the benefits of working with the digital transformation. And also, just the topic of what is digital transformation and why is it important for companies to change over time and to be ready for a digital world? So, we actually have a lot of different guests and it's quite popular. So, so we also have guests that are actually reaching out to us and are interested in being part of the podcast. So that is very, very good. And that it is really like a safe space for me and Heino, who is the other podcast host, where it's two hours of our time where we can just dive into a guest or two guests from a company and just be curious at what they do and how they found their way into that job and that position and what the company is aiming for. And what is difficult. And my role in a lot of our conversation is primarily about people. So, I'm very interested in when technology hits the desk and hits the company. So how does that affect people and what do we expect of people? How do we expect them to change? How do we expect them to grasp the digital possibilities that are out there? Because we are still just human beings and quite simple people that like to do what we did yesterday and stuff like that. So, training and working with adoption of technology at companies is something that I really find very, very interesting. And then another thing about the podcast and something that we also get a lot of positive feedback about, is that we are good at creating a situation and a space where the guests feel very confident and they feel that it's nice to be there, even though that we are as we are now sitting with headphones and for some, they've never been in a podcast. They've maybe never been on stage or anything talking about themselves. And that is really one of the strengths that I also bring into it that I'm good at quickly finding an energy and a good situation for everyone to be comfortable.

Moderation

That's very important, I think.

Rosa

Every time it happens, we also get positive feedback about it. I'm just like “yeah, we did it again”. Because sometimes we also meet very, very, very, high educated people who are very, very skilled at what they do. But being in podcast may not be the most natural thing for them. So, our is our job is to make them look and feel at their best. We've also got feedback about, oh, you really make people sound professional. No, they are, but we're just good at really creating an environment where they are blossoming.

Moderation

How do you do that? By asking the right questions or what's the magic behind?

Rosa

We always say that we need to have fun here. We need to smile to each other. And we also just start recording when we do not say “now we start the recording” and then just everyone freezes and I'm not able to say anything. So, I think that the way, and that is also something that I also bring into a lot of relationships, is that I really like humour. I think that humour makes us loosen up. So maybe just not in the awkward way, but just to have some icebreakers along the way. And just loosen up and laugh, about it, saying something that may be not perfect and stuff like that. Just one of the ways to create a nice environment, looking at each other, smiling.

Moderation

Like we do now.

Rosa

Yeah. Exactly.

Moderation

I hope you felt comfortable with us, too.

Rosa

Did, I really did.

Moderation

Very nice.

Rosa

It's been great being here.

Moderation

Thank you that you are here with us and, talk about your career. It's very interesting. We are almost at the end of this episode. And our last question always is, what is your slogan as digital shero?

Rosa

I think that my slogan is that “if you assume you make an ass out of you and me”. If you are spelling “assume” and you actually divide it into three elements, you get ass and you can you and you can me. So, I really think that this about setting expectations do never assume anything. Ask if you are in doubt, ask twice if you didn't understand the answer. I think that is really something that have helped me along the way, not assuming anything. So that will be my slogan.

Moderation

Thank you so much. It's really a great slogan. And thank you for being here, Rosa, it was a pleasure for us to speak with you and to be here in Copenhagen. Thank you.

Rosa

Thank you for visiting me here. That's very nice.

Moderation

Thank you. Bye.